Don't mean to rain on your parade but...

[mili]

An FTA or atmega type hack won't happen with N2 because it is a mathematical impossibility! Nagra 2 uses something called a DT08. Basically, this is 72 byte number that the card sends to the receiver right at bootup. This 72 byte number is RSA encrypted with a 512 bit key that only Nagra knows. This 512 bit is not found in the receiver or card...so it will never be known to us. Furthermore, the DT08 contains info on the boxkeys, IRD #, Cam #. When the receiver gets this DT08, it basically does some mathematical checking to ensure that it wasn't forged and establishes a session key. If the IRD suspects the DT08 was forged, it requests it again from the card and goes into an infinite loop until the card produces a valid DT08. You cannot create your own DT08 because doing so would require factoring a very large number (512 bits) into 2 prime numbers....it is one of the oldest problems in number theory. It is simple to factor a number, but it's time consuming! And a number that is 512 bits long would take all the supercomputers until the end of the universe to factor that number. You get the point? The DT08 was introduced by Nagra to make any standalone hacks IMPOSSIBLE. People need to understand this...standalone hack will never exist again, even if we have complete dumps of the card and IRDs.

The moral of this story is that people can throw out their FTA receivers, Magic Cards and Atmegas, any hack ever appearing will require a Nagra 2 card be present.

mili

[tbelisle]

Parade is washed out... Thanks!

[BTBoy]

Yep the fix will be like the old Married SUB days of AVR. So likely you will need to carry a SUB and it will just crack open more channels above your SUB (by masking additional tiers over your SUB tiers). Also may entail a nice piece of hardware sticking out of your IRD again with the card sticking out of it.

[RoofleChicken]

Interesting .... makes you wonder if Dish hasn't thought of a way to incresase their subs by making the only way to hack the card is to require a basic sub. I know I'd pay for a sub if I could still open up the rest of the channels. I'm willing to bet a lot more people would as well.

[JT]

It's a sad state of affairs. No doubt about that. At least Mili will have the torrent stuff to fall back on if it becomes popular enough.

[tbelisle]

why did this never come up at CC's?

I mean, no disrespect, but those guys are hard core coders. you think they would have figured that out by now!

[io3]

why did this never come up at CC's?

I mean, no disrespect, but those guys are hard core coders. you think they would have figured that out by now!


We're going to find out very soon if anyone has figured anything out. Expect more than the usual number of scammers. If there is a hack and they are willing to release it, my guess is it will be soon; if we go a couple months into the viod, then kiss it goodbye.

Yikes! Get those lifeboats ready.

[RoofleChicken]

If there is a hack and they are willing to release it, my guess is it will be soon.

I'd disagree there. It wouldn't make any sense to roll a hack out now. E* is using BEV as a N2 test bed and waiting to see what happens. This is why they went after DN's porn and international channels first. They are hoping we'll show outr hand early. They are by no means beyond the point of no return with N2 roll-out. A hack comes out now and they could delay or abort it until they fix the hack. The only time you'll see a N2 hack released is after E* has gone N2 across the board and is 100% committed to it.

[littlelarryjr]

sorry milli, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but How do you know?

I mean I have heard smart statements from smart people, why would we take what you say as gold? Do you know something that your not sharing?

Where does your DT08 and 512bit info come from? Who else has validated this staement?

Just rechecking the double checks, no flame intended

Lljr

[JT]

I'd disagree there. It wouldn't make any sense to roll a hack out now. E* is using BEV as a N2 test bed and waiting to see what happens. This is why they went after DN's porn and international channels first. They are hoping we'll show outr hand early. They are by no means beyond the point of no return with N2 roll-out. A hack comes out now and they could delay or abort it until they fix the hack. The only time you'll see a N2 hack released is after E* has gone N2 across the board and is 100% committed to it.

Your probably 100% right on that one Roofle. So far nothing has trickeled down to the peons around here, but if there is a fix hiding out there somewhere, it would be foolish to release it until Charlie has fully committed himself.

[22v10]

No disrespect but , I too disagree.

[B]FYI[B]

512 bit keys cracked in 6 weeks? posted 9:07am EST Fri Mar 29 2002 - submitted by Ron Kassen

NEWS
Daniel Bernstein, associate professor of mathematics at University of Illinois-Chicago (UIC) published a paper last fall outlining a method of more efficiently factoring large numbers, making it possible to factor keys as large as 1024 bits derived from the RSA algorithm in a reasonably short period of time. This would have a major impact on common security protocols such as PGP, SSH, and IPSec, typically deployed with keys smaller than 1024 bits.

On one side, many experts say that they now consider keys as large as 1024 bits to be compromised, stating that organizations such as the NSA with unparalleled resources could build a computer capable of factoring these keys.

Lucky Green, a well known member of the group Cypherpunks, posted a message to the Bugtraq mailing list detailing how the NSA could build such a system, and stated that it would be foolish for the NSA not to have completed the task of building the machine already. He also stated that he considers his keys that are 1024 bits and smaller to have already been compromised. Nicko van Someren, CTO of nCipher Inc., states that building such a machine may not be necessary, as his company's researchers had developed a method of factoring 512 bit RSA keys in less than 6 weeks with readily available computers. Keys larger than this are not considered to be common place.
END---:D
AFAIK One only needs to know where to look....Notice the date and time:D
Yes maybe there won't be an ATmega device but a Pocket PC type platform using a network or card share is completely possible. Read, READ, READ.
Milli's right NO magic card N2 :D
IMO
Card sharing seems to be the invouge , i.e Dream box with a card sharing emu
sounds more doable. I can't wait to see some dealers try and cash in on that! NOT!!!1

22v10
:cool:

[22v10]

and this.....

What is RSA announcing?

At the Eurocrypt '99 conference this week in Prague, Adi Shamir, a coinventor of the RSA public-key algorithm and a professor at the Weizmann Institute in Israel, is presenting a design for a special hardware device that would speed up the first part of the process of factoring a large number. The design, called TWINKLE, which stands for "The Weizmann Institute Key Locating Engine," is based on opto-electronics. Shamir estimates that the device would be as powerful as about 100 to 1,000 PCs in the factoring process called "sieving," and would cost only about $5,000 in quantity.
Does this mean that RSA can be cracked? No. Shamir's device offers the possibility of recovering keys less expensively than with a network of PCs, but does not crack RSA in the sense of making it easy to recover keys of any size. Rather, the device speeds up the "sieving" step of known methods of factoring large numbers, which are the primary avenues for attacking the RSA public-key algorithm. The design confirms what was previously expected about the appropriateness of certain RSA key sizes, including 512 bits. Larger RSA key sizes are still out of reach, one of the obstacles being the amount of work and storage involved in the rest of the process of factoring a large number.
What would it take to build the new device?

Building the device would involve a fair amount of opto-electronic engineering, but it is likely to be feasible. :D

22v10
:cool:

[seaboard18]

This 72 byte number is RSA encrypted with a 512 bit key that only Nagra knows.
mili


Of course, there are also attacks that aim not at RSA itself but at a given insecure implementation of RSA; these do not count as breaking RSA because it is not any weakness in the RSA algorithm that is exploited, but rather a weakness in a specific implementation. For example, if someone stores his private key insecurely, an attacker may discover it. One cannot emphasize strongly enough that to be truly secure RSA requires a secure implementation; mathematical security measures, such as choosing a long key size, are not enough. In practice, most successful attacks will likely be aimed at insecure implementations and at the key management stages of an RSA system.

[rurso]

I disagree on waiting til N2 is full boat for Dish hack to be released(if someone has it).How long and how much research did they do on N2 vs N1 before they started using it. Dish knows the N1 is hacked so they research and develope N2. Now you let out N2 hack,then what would they do? Keep N1,implement N2 anyway or start on something new.

[mili]

At this point in time I am very sceptic of any N2 hacks just popping up. IF there is one you rest assured it wont be released (unless the developers are utter morons) until after the swap and most likely it will be an kind of AVR or hardware Blocker.

mili

[Trapofmind]

From what I hear (read) everything we knew in the past (Nagra, P3) wasn’t hacked but leaked. I think it will be the same this time, some disgruntled employee or one looking to make some cash will take a leak all over Nagra2.

That being said; I have waited for over a year on the P4 to be leaked on, to no avail.

[jpc314]

If this is the case, then why continue to sell shit that will not work later on ? quit trying to make a buck, there will be NO HACK FOR DISH/DTV, GET OVER IT. and i wish peeps would stop buying crap that will be useless in the next 6 months, so keep your money, you'll need it to sub

[mili]

First of all don't try ordering me around in my home. Second, the end of the swap is about 6 months away so wow $49 for 6 months (a magic 2 card's price) TV is all sooo expensive (not even if you flipe burgers for a living). Go and fucking subscribe buddy. If I told everyone yes the magic 2 cards will work get them now while they are cheap (like some assholes were trying to peddle atmegas) THEN you'd have a reason to gripe. If I wanted to keep all this a secret I would not have posted telling everyone that nothing current will work eh?
Get some clue and go fish elswhere.

mili

[seaboard18]

No one is going to give N2 away. Just like Mili states, don't hold your breath waiting on it, it will not happen. Although, I disagree a bit that N2 is impossible to be hacked, I do not think it is a mathematical impossibility. Anything that humans create that deals with computers can be hacked eventually.

Mili has not lied to anyone and it would be best to take the free advice for now. Get a [sub] going when the time comes, this is your best course of action. Keep up with the testing forums, at least the reliable ones, you will learn allot once N2 is a complete reality.

Is it really free? You pay hundreds of dollars to get something for free! It is a nice hobby, which can be expensive. So, its not free! Get your subscription, share it with your friends and just wait for a new beginning. You will be happy, Charley will be happy and Dave will stay happy! Black Sunday will come again someday in the future, but in reverse, for them, not us!

[sukh77]

MILI - Don't be bothered with that Buttplug, Some dingle berries just post shit to see anyone will throw them a bone for free.

[crazyfish12]

lol.....give em hell boss....

yes somthing will come around after the swap, but it wont be for the average free-tv'er.

some of us have been around for a long time posting under different nicks, or just reading(which is somewhat of a lost art anymore).

anyone remember the battary card days? .........dtv made it too easy, dish has always made it tough, but the payoff is much more enjoyable.

i do agree....it will nost likly be a blocker board to stop tierwipes or desubs of the card.
and still theres a great deal to get past on that. "but possible in therory"

my 2cents worth

[THE DIRTY GATOR]

sorry milli, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but How do you know?

I mean I have heard smart statements from smart people, why would we take what you say as gold? Do you know something that your not sharing?

Where does your DT08 and 512bit info come from? Who else has validated this staement?

Just rechecking the double checks, no flame intended

Lljr

A VERY GOOD QUESTION! NEVER BE AFRAID TO ASK A QUESTION!

[THE DIRTY GATOR]

GREAT POST! Shows that there still some people who are on the ball!!!!

[THE DIRTY GATOR]

"If I told everyone yes the magic 2 cards will work get them now while they are cheap (like some assholes were trying to peddle atmegas." What was said about the Atmega Cards Mili was it "MIGHT" or it "MAY" work with a future New code. The truth is the Atmega card will work as long as the Magic Card #1 & #2 will or until the entire stream goes N2. So don't call people "ASSHOLES" for making a statement that is just as true as yours! Oh yes the fixs for the Atmega card are for the most part FREE!!!!
GATOR

[THE DIRTY GATOR]

Why not do as the SETI people are doing...network a bunch of computers together and use their combined power to crack the N2. Boy am I in way over my head!!!! I know that there are a lot of smart people who can do that sort of thing. I am sorry but I am not one of those people!

[tbelisle]

and exactly who's bandwith would you be usind to make this "computer array?"

[THE DIRTY GATOR]

Well not yours for sure!

[tbelisle]

Awesome come back!
Did all the kids on the short bus help you with it or did you mannage that all on your own?

If you don't like what Mili has to say in his own house, quite simple... leave!

[mili]

Ok I had enough of this idiot.

mili

[LittleE]

Thank You>>>>> I was getting tired of reading the tic for tat thing. If and when it does comes out rest your hat on that this site will know about it.........So kick back pop a top fire them up if you got them and ride the storm out !!!!!!!!!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~JUST MY 8 CENTS~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[pepper rex]

Mili deserves a lot of credit for 1 stating clearly that the present magic cards will not work for nagra2. Many other sites skirt around the issue or tell outright lies about their products using terms lie nagra2 ready
2 being extremely tolerant about what is posted here. On many sites posts critical of the owner would be deleted immediately
Mili has set a gold standard and is greatly respected.

[lnb]

yea ive been here for an hour and i can allready tell that mili is a strait shooter that knows his shit ;) my kinda guy.

[BTBoy]

Second, the end of the swap is about 6 months away so wow $49 for 6 months (a magic 2 card's price) TV is all sooo expensive (not even if you flipe burgers for a living).I have to chime in that some people will still need testing HW up 'til almost the end, if you want to ride it that far. Things can go wrong with the HW ans you need replacement. The Magic Card and ATmega Prices are dropping and are nowhere where they were when things first cam out adn you would spend $80 on an ATmega or $100+ on a Magic Card. The honest guys are selecting it in their price adn the bad guys gouge. $8.17 a month is damn cheep when just AT60 is $26.99 a month and Everything Pack is $81.99 a month. If you look at how well BEV is awitching over to all N2 for End of April (NOT) and apply it to Dish, we may have some stuff (AT Packs?) linger for a few months longer than predicted. Corporate Goals and reality tend to be two different things.

Some people get started late in the game likely feel ripped off that they just caught on to what is fading out, and anything costs too much when it wont last forever. Let's not talk abotu those who don't want to have to do anything to keep their system running.

I don't know the Magic Card Specs, but the Married Sub setup may have some promise with a new program for it but I don't know if it phisically could handle the task. In this case faster is better.

[mili]

Good post BTBoy. A rose in the weed. Glad some people still got a clue around here :)

mili

[Biggen1]

Here it is BOTTOM Line:::::::::




The last time I came home and found I was down.....( About 8 or 9 months ago)



I checked my E-mail and Mili had E-mailed me the fix.........





Who else in the Biz.... does this.........




No ONE.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





You people read and visit this site and still don't have a clue............





Until Mili says it true:::::::::::




Its just a scam.......... Save your $$$$$$$$$$ and wait until



MILI says its true............




Support this site..................

[Cimba]

Well the really depressing part of the whole sub possibility is that it leaves those of us north of the border with only bev as a hope, give me some rope and a strong branch ok !

[pitbullracin]

What about the cardless boxes? Anything going on testing wise to these? My friend subs to dish and has all cardless boxes.

[smilingjack]

He is shit out of luck. You can't test the new boxes. They don't belong to you anyway, you lease them. To hack them is a criminal offense, not just hacking, destroying private property.

[io3]

Ok, maybe I'm off on the timing of a possible hack, but... hacks are timely, and they only last until the next security issue by the providers. For example, the p4/5 is already at half-life; how long would a hack last for that if it came out today? 2 or 3 years...maybe. You know dave will upgrade to the P6 or whatever it's called; same goes for Dish. That's why I say it'll be sooner or never. Because the value of the hack diminshes daily.

Sure it may be wise to wait until N2 is fully implemented, but did the HU hack wait for the H to go away? No, and it lasted for a VERY long time. Depends on who has it, and what their motives are...freeware for the masses or profiteering. I don't know, but I would sure like to get my 6000 flying again soon.

[smilingjack]

Ok, maybe I'm off on the timing of a possible hack, but... hacks are timely, and they only last until the next security issue by the providers. For example, the p4/5 is already at half-life; how long would a hack last for that if it came out today? 2 or 3 years...maybe. You know dave will upgrade to the P6 or whatever it's called; same goes for Dish. That's why I say it'll be sooner or never. Because the value of the hack diminshes daily.

Sure it may be wise to wait until N2 is fully implemented, but did the HU hack wait for the H to go away? No, and it lasted for a VERY long time. Depends on who has it, and what their motives are...freeware for the masses or profiteering. I don't know, but I would sure like to get my 6000 flying again soon.

The change to the HU was fully implimented before the Hu hack was released / found, after that Dave was stuck with the HU, P-xx system for years since he was totally into the system

Dave is not fully into the system and could abondon it and go to the same system Dave has at this point.

Once he is fully coommitted it will be N2, N3, N4, N5 before that he may back out of Nagra

[Hopey007]

Modified firmware is the only hope for non card fixes.

Hopey

[freecharlie]

Mili, I looked high & low for an HONEST site before I found yours... Now the only way I'm leaving is if you kick me out. In a capitalistic society, where people come to do business, you can pay an honest price OR you can pay X2 for a dishonest price--You decide but if you don't like it, then get the F*** OUT! Mili, please continue as you are, there's a reason your so well respected in this community.

Idiot Gator Man... Do you think you could say it all in ONE post? Makes you wonder if these idiots don't work for charlie, or dave. You know they must come here from time to time. What would you say if you were them?

[JILOMAN_12670]

If there is no hack for N2 then sites like this one will dry up fast and disappear. I know that there are a lot of people that like this site but without the sales of hacking devices, there is no point for this site to exist. Milli doesn't charge for membership so I assume that the sales from Milli's store are paying the bills for the bandwith. I can't imagine that the bandwith necessary for this site to operate smoothly is cheap and there won't be very many people interested in paying a membership if there is no hack to discuss. I hate to say it but if there is no N2 hack, the days of this web site as it exists now are numbered. The same thing happened at DSSUG. It may take a year or so after full N2 implementation but it will happen. Nobody continues to operate in the red for very long.

My guess is that most of us will end up checking the status of the hobby at places like ID which relys on other sources of income like the sales of mod chips for PS2 game sets.

[smilingjack]

Just one of the reasons we are moving into Torrents, A lot of Torrent places were closed down in the U.S. and being out of the U.S. we can survive the U.S. clamp down.
Should it catch on we may be able to make a few bucks to pay the rent with the Torrents so if you want to help keep this place open until a hack is found, spread the word about the FREE Torrent section and help build it up against a long dry spell in dss.

Thanks, Sj :):):)

[interboot]

dave & charlie just can't change cards whenever they want to. they are not bill gates. they don't have billions of disposable money to toy with. so if the hacks come out today, who knows it will last more than 2-3 years? that's why they have ecm, cuz they just can't swap cards verytime someone is watching freetv again.

on another note; dave and charlie are still losing money accrding to what they tell unclle sam. so what happen if subsription has not gone up after the swap? then they lost even more money. i wonder by then dish & dtv corp board will still back dave & charlie?

one thing i would like to find out is if dtv has increased subscription rate since the hu funeral?

[skinerd]

Anyone, at this point, making any claim of a N2 hack, or their stuff is N2 compatible in order to make a sale, is fucking lying to you.......shit..a 301 receiver is N2 compatible, but what does that do for testing N2......zero.....

[dssdork]

well my personal opion......i personally think the p/4 d/1 n2 hack will be out but it will only come through dave or charlie themselves and it would not suprise me if a unkown site just popped out of no where and had the hack and it would be charlie or dave because im sure they would want to make the first initial large peice of the cash and guess what few years later card swap again and back to the saame thing......

[BirdieMod]

26.99 month? When did you sub lately?, Feb 1st it went to 31.99 for top 60 "Paid advertisment" channels crap.
With summer on the way and peeps doing yard cleanups, I think some of those old free big dishes from peeps that want it out of the yard for free is sounding good to me.

[tbelisle]

Agreed. gonna go hunting this week end.

[kev jr]

Thats funny i was thinking of doing the same thing looking for a big dish but have no clue into irds for big dishes and can they be tested?? can anyone help in the c band or ku band to give some good advice in buying a used big dish and reciever or lead me to some good forums for big dishes to start reading i have read though that there is no hack for vc2 ?? correct ?? any input would be appreciated

thanks

Kev

[hoda greiss]

anyone with new keys for april 15

[sukh77]

search for BUD you will find a forum.

[smilingjack]

People you have to remember before you look for BUD stuff;

There are two kinds of dishes C-Band and KU band.

There are two kinds or IRD's

Analog
Digital

Two kinds of antennas (recieving elements)
LNA
LNB


C-Band dishes cannot get KU band.

KU band if large can get C-Band (6 foot or more)



There are three (3) kinds of encription

C-Band old........can be hacked
C-Band new......cannot be hacked or is good secret
KU band............connot be hacked or is good secret


READ READ READ IT IS A LOT DIFFERENT AND MORE EXPENSIVE THAN DISH & BEV

Sj

[Crazy1_79]

i got a line on a BUD just in case, have to go back to school to figure out how to set the damn thing up

[smilingjack]

It's really not hard to do, the hard part is deciding what to buy and the labor involved in planting the dish, big sucker like that takes plenty of concrete to hold it down in the wind.


I would recommend a 8' or larger dish either a solid aluminum or real fine screen mesh dish.
The smaller dish and the big hole mesh can not get the KU band (digital) and that is where all the channels are going, better quality, better than Bev and Disnet.

That way you have all the options, C-Band / KU band / Bev / FTA / Dish/ you can always tack on a bev or dishnet LNB if the hack comes and have NO RAIN FADE.
hehehe

[t160hq]

I'm using a 10' channel master mesh. Chaperal c/ku feed. The receiver is a Toshiba TRX 2200. It's UHF remote as well as ku compatable. Receiver is intergrated meaning the vcII (not vcII+) slides right into the receiver.

Bear in mind lots of the receivers from the BUD hey days did not come with VCII modules. No scrambling in the beginning so they were not necessary. They came later. So a General Insturments add on VCII box was necessary to use a VCII with the system. They were separate units connected with cables to the receiver. They are now no longer built and very rare. As well as necessary if testing a BUD that uses a receiver that's non-intergrated. So if your buying a receiver that is not a intergrated try to get the GI unit for the VCII as well.

Also try to get a already modded VCII. They are a bear to mod from scratch. Then all you need to add is a new IC or make a few simple mods to the unit. Like TSOP's in dish systems the IC in a VCII need to be programmed as well. Unlike DN TSOP's it's not as simple as a jtag. You will need equipment like a ultraviolet eraser and a IC programmer. A old IC programmer. Since newer ones may or may not support the IC's used in a VCII module.

The latest for the IC is AR654. That stands for AutoRoll v6.54. Depending on when the VCII 010,018 ect, you manage to get your hands on, was last modded it may need a new ic to load the AR654. It may also need a few extra changes to work. It will no doubt need a new battery. 3.3 Lithum if I remember correctly. If the current one is dead in the VCII that brings up other issues which can be addressed with a bit but not too much hassle.

You will be hearing a lot about seed keys. Won't go into a lot of detail here but they are the 'key' to getting sound on the few VCII channels still up there. The AR654 will auto roll but as I understand it seed keys have to be entered. You can either do this with a IC programmer or through on screen menu's built into the AR654 software.

Don't expect the kind of channel coverage you get with dave or charlie. Very limited in comparsion. Around 25 to 30 channels you can get with sound. The rest that are VCII+ do have video but audio was what had the serious encryption on the BUD's. So for you porn fans who don't mind no sound you still get about 3 channels of porn with perfect video.

Ku wise lots of wild feeds up there. You have to hunt for them but it's worth it in most cases. On the Ku topic. You have two types of Ku with BUD's. 4DTV and what I like to call standard Ku. You will need a GI 4DTV system for the 4DTV stuff. Can't get it with the orginal Ku receivers like my 2200. Special hardware (in the form of a GI 4DTV receiver)is required to pick it up. According to the AR 654 read me it's compatable with 4DTV but I can't say myself if any of it will come in with it.

So before you pick up that yard sale BUD that they just want to get rid of. Do some reading to find out what you need before you buy or haul away. Just to make sure it will serve the purpose.

t160hq

[smilingjack]

Dam should have let you write that article. You are the expert. I have an original C-Band IRD , built it myself, had to add the black board when American exctasy went to xxx exctasy and had to scramble.

Some of that stuff is still aruond and available I have seen people offering the black boards for sale on sites. whole systems in fact too.

It is definatley not for everyone.

[t160hq]

Thanks for the compliment Jack but I'm playing big time catch up with the BUD stuff. Most of it since the channels dropping off charlie and bev. Had no idea it was still going on till I started looking into alternatives.

For those looking for a cheaper alternative to sub's to dave of charlie the BUD's with a VCII+ still offer what I think all programming providers should offer. Only Bev offers this as far as I know of. That is I select the channels I want and pay just for them. You have to buy at least 10 channels but you get to select the 10. Instead of them making you buy 180 channels to get the 10 you actually watch.

If the N2 testing method never shows up i'm going back to BUD. Still have my VCII+ and they still have the channels I'm most intrested in. Not only that I can still sub those channels for under 20 bucks. Not counting the free Ku wild feeds. Getting the 10 channels you want for a fair price 'Priceless'.

t160hq

[RoofleChicken]

Getting the 10 channels you want for a fair price 'Priceless'.

This is what really escapes me about it all. I wouldn't mind paying for my choice of channels. In reality I only watch maybe a couple dozen or so at best. I also like having scads of locals from all over the US too. It's nice to be able to watch the news from back home when I want to. If DTV and DN would serve it up a la carte I'd be far more interested. The movies and porn I can get free of the internet faster anyway.

[smilingjack]

I know what you mean.
When I first subbed to dave It was because I anted to travel in my motorhome and could not stand to thing about a really long trip with that 6' bud dish on top, it was Ok for local traveling, worked for me for years since they came out with the 6' and later 3' dishes for RV's.

The package did not come with my favorite channel but to get it I had to buy a whole package with a dozen channels I never watched and did not want to watch.
I complained to the channel that it cost me I think $20 extra to get them and that I would drop them as soon as possible, They were not happy and said that they had no choice because dave decided where they went and used them to get people to buy channels that were not popular and people would not buy without a reason, and that it cost them viewers.

Dish is the same way they put in one or two good channels and load up the package with crap just to sell them. and of course they charge both them and us. plus a charge for the commercials.

[bols2dawaLL]

LOL , quite the visual . Motorhome with a 6" dish . Didja have to go outside and crank a handle to hit the sats ? ROTFLMAO

[kornboy89]

People you have to remember before you look for BUD stuff;

There are two kinds of dishes C-Band and KU band.

There are two kinds or IRD's

Analog
Digital

Two kinds of antennas (recieving elements)
LNA
LNB


C-Band dishes cannot get KU band.

KU band if large can get C-Band (6 foot or more)



There are three (3) kinds of encription

C-Band old........can be hacked
C-Band new......cannot be hacked or is good secret
KU band............connot be hacked or is good secret


READ READ READ IT IS A LOT DIFFERENT AND MORE EXPENSIVE THAN DISH & BEV

Sj

How are you able to deferantiate between LNB and LNA?

[smilingjack]

This is what really escapes me about it all. I wouldn't mind paying for my choice of channels. In reality I only watch maybe a couple dozen or so at best. I also like having scads of locals from all over the US too. It's nice to be able to watch the news from back home when I want to. If DTV and DN would serve it up a la carte I'd be far more interested. The movies and porn I can get free of the internet faster anyway.


They would probably love to sell them to you but the Government won't let them.

[smilingjack]

LOL , quite the visual . Motorhome with a 6" dish . Didja have to go outside and crank a handle to hit the sats ? ROTFLMAO

Yes and NO,

The first one I put on the RV was just a regular 6" dish, solid aluminum which I had at the house for a while. It had to be untied and set up on a tripod and aimed manualy.

The next one was a 4' factory RV dish that was attached to the roof and had a motor to raise and lower it, and another motor to rotate it.

The reception on the 6' was a lot better but the convience on the 4' was great.

[smilingjack]

How are you able to deferantiate between LNB and LNA?


LNA is for C-Band it is a big round thing that looks like a target with a half inch piece of wire showing in the center ring, (that's the actual 'antenna' that the dish aims the signal at)

LNB is for KU digital different looking entirley.

[kornboy89]

LNA is for C-Band it is a big round thing that looks like a target with a half inch piece of wire showing in the center ring, (that's the actual 'antenna' that the dish aims the signal at)

LNB is for KU digital different looking entirley.

So LNB is the one you want if u have those big 10' dishes, that way they can get C band. right?

[smilingjack]

Both LNA & LNB work with C-Band
Two different signals are there. (analog LNA) & (digital LNB)

KU has only one signal LNB

[t160hq]

LNA = Low noise amplifer. In the case of a LNA a extra box is necessary to do downconversion. The best way to tell is the connector on the LNA to connect it to the Block Downcoverter. It's a large coax connector. About half a inch in diamerter. A cable goes from the LNA to the downcoverter. Another RG6 or standard cable goes from the downcoverter to the receiver.

LNB =Low noise Block downcoverter. This is a LNA with the blockdowncoverter built into the LNB. So just a standard RG-6 connector (the same as the coax connecter on your tv) which is connected directly to the receiver by cable.

In essance c-band signals are very weak. Hence the very large dish to pick them up. The LNA amplifies the signal on the order of 1000 times (may be more been awhile) the starting signal strength. After the signal is amplified it needs to be converted to a frequency the receiver can work with. The downcoverter changes it to a signal of lower frequency that can be used by the receiver. And transported without much loss to the receiver.

Later the LNA and downcoverter were combined in a single unit. Hence LNB.

t160hq

[t160hq]

You want a LNB. LNA's are very old tech and not worth the effort of installing them unless you have to.

LNA's and LNB's do the same thing. The only difference is LNA's need a extra piece to do the job. LNB's have this piece included in the package. Less in this case is more.

t160hq

[bols2dawaLL]

t160hq - wow . sounds like you mighta done this before

[t160hq]

While on the subject of LNA and LNB. Ready for this boys and girls. Tempurature is a factor. Not the Temp outside but the temp of the LNB or LNA. It equates to actual signal strength deleviered by the LNB or LNA.

This ranges from 25 degrees to 120 degrees. In this case lower temp is better. I don't claim to understand this one but if your looking at these units. Look for the lowest temp on the LNB or LNA. The lower it is the better it will work. Makes the difference bewteen working on a 6' vs a 10' dish. Seen a Zenith 5' BUD a 25 degree LNB worked perfectly on. It was a perf dish made by winguard. All sats from low 5 watt to 15 watt.

t160hq

[t160hq]

Used to (many years ago) install these monsters. Nothing like seeing someone write a check for 8000.00 for TV! Just couldn't understand it myself. So all this talk about how expensive tv is baffles me. Guess I just am stuck in a different time. :-)

t160hq

[bols2dawaLL]

t160hq - you cuttin and pastin this stuff ? LOL
You obviously need to start your own forum . Can Mili make money from BUD? hehe

[JT]

Maybe if there is still no hope for an N2 decryption system when the time comes, Mili's will be BUD and torrents.....if t160hg sticks around anyway. :) I'm going to wait on investing in BUD for a couple more months, but I guarantee you I will be giving it some heavy consideration here pretty soon if nothing for N2 comes up...and it looks like that's the way things are heading.

[bols2dawaLL]

what's the shipping on a 6 ft. dish ?
gotta excuse me . haven 2 much fun
been drinkin 2 . Explains a lot huh .

[smilingjack]

While on the subject of LNA and LNB. Ready for this boys and girls. Tempurature is a factor. Not the Temp outside but the temp of the LNB or LNA. It equates to actual signal strength deleviered by the LNB or LNA.

This ranges from 25 degrees to 120 degrees. In this case lower temp is better. I don't claim to understand this one but if your looking at these units. Look for the lowest temp on the LNB or LNA. The lower it is the better it will work. Makes the difference bewteen working on a 6' vs a 10' dish. Seen a Zenith 5' BUD a 25 degree LNB worked perfectly on. It was a perf dish made by winguard. All sats from low 5 watt to 15 watt.

t160hq

Do you remember how they rated the LNA's it was degrees or something, the first dishes had to be 16' but when better LNA's were developed (better signal to noise ratios) the dish size came down, I remember having to get better LNA's for the smaller dishes.

[t160hq]

Back in the day we were having BUD's delivered by truck on the order of 20 per week. Delviery was free.

Now a days I imagine it would be big time cost. Those Drake dishes would weigh in the neighborhood of 200 pounds. For just the dish. The jack and electronics would bump it up to another 50 to 75 pounds.

At this point the shipping alone would make it cost prohibiavitve for the average tester. Even with the lighter dish's. Course with quanity comes discounts. If it takes off like a candle on fire costs will come down.

Might even bring back dropped channels. Never know. LOL

t160hq

[t160hq]

Do you remember how they rated the LNA's it was degrees or something, the first dishes had to be 16' but when better LNA's were developed (better signal to noise ratios) the dish size came down, I remember having to get better LNA's for the smaller dishes.

As I remember the best LNA's ever got was 95 degrees. After that everyone swithed to LNB's. Which went as low as 25 degrees. The LNA research dropped off after the LNB's took over.

t160hq

[smilingjack]

Thanks I thought it was degrees but after all these years I was not sure.

I remember that people used to paint those monsters to keep the neighbors quiet, camoflage like.

About temperture, the Bev & Dish LNB's are also affected by temperature.

In both cases a few idiots painted them white and they of course reflected senlight and heat to the LAA/B when stopped working they wondered why, thought the flat gray was ugly and wanted to dress them up a little.

[keeper01]

sorry milli, I'm not trying to be an asshole, but How do you know?

I mean I have heard smart statements from smart people, why would we take what you say as gold? Do you know something that your not sharing?

Where does your DT08 and 512bit info come from? Who else has validated this staement?

Just rechecking the double checks, no flame intended

Lljr


Hey MAN The Geniuses at dSs_lEgeNdS say it is the TruTh... there fore it IS or they will BAN your ASS !!!!!
How dare you even Question the Authority of the LeGenDs (of their own Mind)

[t160hq]

Thanks I thought it was degrees but after all these years I was not sure.

I remember that people used to paint those monsters to keep the neighbors quiet, camoflage like.

About temperture, the Bev & Dish LNB's are also affected by temperature.

In both cases a few idiots painted them white and they of course reflected senlight and heat to the LAA/B when stopped working they wondered why, thought the flat gray was ugly and wanted to dress them up a little.

Nailed that as the number one question of most of the customers in my installes of BUD's

I want it to look good in the yard. Instead of what will work without destroying the system. I guess when you pay that much for something you want some say in the the looks. Unfortunly in this case the looks can destroy the system. Not to mention the funny looks from the neighbors. I want it to look like I'm on the cutting edge but not to the point that it look onstuntageous.

t160hq

[smilingjack]

As I remember the best LNA's ever got was 95 degrees. After that everyone swithed to LNB's. Which went as low as 25 degrees. The LNA research dropped off after the LNB's took over.

t160hq

You should get with truckdriver he was a BUD installer and stays current with them. Talk old times, we have hijacked a few threads with BUD too.

Mili does not want to get into BUD & DVN right now.
If there was a hack for them he would jump on them.

Have you seen that you can sub to N2 in Europe with DVB's now ?
The come with cams now.

[smilingjack]

I used to send them to a fellow who did airbrush work he could either make them invisable, blending in or give them pretty picture looks.
He always used non-reflective paint and colors to keep the heat down.
It was commonplace where I was to see some strange paint jobs.

[delco]

what's the shipping on a 6 ft. dish ?
gotta excuse me . haven 2 much fun
been drinkin 2 . Explains a lot huh .

if you have the room and the coins i would look for a 10 to 12 foot dish, bigger is better for pictures quality.. but most of the time if you just drive around and find one that are not being used, most peeps will give you there old big dish just to get it out of the yard..

[seaboard18]

[QUOTE=smilingjack]It's really not hard to do, the hard part is deciding what to buy and the labor involved in planting the dish, big sucker like that takes plenty of concrete to hold it down in the wind.


I would recommend a 8' or larger dish either a solid aluminum or real fine screen mesh dish.
/QUOTE]


Gez, I got rid of all that VCII stuff about 15 years ago! Back when Echostar Receivers were in there hey day, I repaired them on a daily basis. I had to call Echostar Tech support a few times though, the receivers were not easy to repair, ... in the day! I remember they had quite allot of trouble with regulators popping, I wish I had a dollar for everyone I replaced!

I don't think I will bother installing an 8' dish, I rather sub for a while and see what cums up! :) Anyway, good luck to all who want to mess with that junk!

[JILOMAN_12670]

Just one of the reasons we are moving into Torrents, A lot of Torrent places were closed down in the U.S. and being out of the U.S. we can survive the U.S. clamp down.
Should it catch on we may be able to make a few bucks to pay the rent with the Torrents so if you want to help keep this place open until a hack is found, spread the word about the FREE Torrent section and help build it up against a long dry spell in dss.

Thanks, Sj :):):)

Maybe if there is still no hope for an N2 decryption system when the time comes, Mili's will be BUD and torrents.....if t160hg sticks around anyway. :) I'm going to wait on investing in BUD for a couple more months, but I guarantee you I will be giving it some heavy consideration here pretty soon if nothing for N2 comes up...and it looks like that's the way things are heading.

I really doubt that the torrent angle is going to work. The site is what it is and you can try to change it but that is not why people come here. Most of us can see that the ship is sinking and it's just a matter of time now. It has been a very long time now since we have seen new innovations in the hobby and an even longer time since we have seen new gurus to take the place of guys like AOL and RAM, VORLORN, ect...

A lot of the talent that kept new things coming down the pipeline have disappeared or been rounded up by Dave and the pipeline has dried up. You hear people say that man made and man can break it and to some degree I agree but the man that breaks it has to be as talented as the man that made it. Actually I believe that he must be more talented. Not only that, but this person or group of people have to be well financed and willing to risk jail time!

How many of you that are that smart are willing to risk jail or financial ruin? Someone that smart has better things to do with their time.
Way back when, guy like AOL, RAM, and dealers knew that they were breaking the law but no one really knew what the real consequences were going to be. That is no longer the case and the risks seem to be much higher.

[keeper01]

Nice post DAVE


Ha ha
Just kiddin... your right on brother man

"The final curtain...... AOL did it his way"

[acoss]

Anyone, at this point, making any claim of a N2 hack, or their stuff is N2 compatible in order to make a sale, is fucking lying to you.......shit..a 301 receiver is N2 compatible, but what does that do for testing N2......zero.....

so basically what you and everybody else is saying is that if i claim to have seen someone watching international channels and all porn (ALL THIS YESTERDAY EVENING) without a sub then i would be lying?

hummm..interesting
so im i guess im full of it

[mdelleh]

I have promlble with channel at FTA , ONLY some is working can u help me for that please !!!
:)

[Astro]

LNA is for C-Band it is a big round thing that looks like a target with a half inch piece of wire showing in the center ring, (that's the actual 'antenna' that the dish aims the signal at)

LNB is for KU digital different looking entirley.

Wrong...

LNA= Requires a separate down converter, tuning voltage must be sent to the down converter to change channels. The down converter can be attached to the feedhorn/LNA assembly (I used zip ties), or the 50 ohm cable can be run down and attached somewhere else like on the pole. But the LNA is strictly for analog *tuning*, and can receive digital signals. LNA= Low Noise Amplifier

LNB= Down converter is built-in to the LNA and can be tuned digitally. Used for Both C band and KU Band. LNB= Low Noise Block Amplifier

The "Big round target"= The feedhorn.. It is a necessary part required for both C Band and KU Band. The scaler rings are there to "scale off" stray signal. They exist in your Dishnet LNBs as well. There is also the polarizer that is also necessary to receive both Horizontal ans Vertical polarized signals. Chaparrel called theirs the Polarotor(tm).. There are other brands, but they do the same thing.

The "DSS" LNB polarizes electronically

[Astro]

While on the subject of LNA and LNB. Ready for this boys and girls. Tempurature is a factor. Not the Temp outside but the temp of the LNB or LNA. It equates to actual signal strength deleviered by the LNB or LNA.

This ranges from 25 degrees to 120 degrees. In this case lower temp is better. I don't claim to understand this one but if your looking at these units. Look for the lowest temp on the LNB or LNA. The lower it is the better it will work. Makes the difference bewteen working on a 6' vs a 10' dish. Seen a Zenith 5' BUD a 25 degree LNB worked perfectly on. It was a perf dish made by winguard. All sats from low 5 watt to 15 watt.

t160hq

The noise temperature in degrees Kelvin. A 120 degree Kelvin LNB will have a lousy signal to noise ratio, where a 20 degree kelvin will have a much improved s/n ratio. The old 85 or higher degree would lose signal in very hot weather. But unlike DSS, the signal didn't have a threshold and would just get a bit "snowy" (actually called sparklies).

With C Band, it's actually an RF "signal" to get TV.
With DSS, it's DATA. You get a weak signal and you get no Data.. Hence the "threshold" where Dave and Charlie lose signal in bad weather. The signal is not gone, it's strength is below the threshold.

[Doh!!]

Just one of the reasons we are moving into Torrents, A lot of Torrent places were closed down in the U.S. and being out of the U.S. we can survive the U.S. clamp down.
Should it catch on we may be able to make a few bucks to pay the rent with the Torrents so if you want to help keep this place open until a hack is found, spread the word about the FREE Torrent section and help build it up against a long dry spell in dss.

Thanks, Sj :):):)
This probably belongs in a new thread, but on the Torrent issue, I for one am really reluctent to seed unless I know more about the security of my PC. I saw the thread about having to open my firewall inorder to seed, and that sounds like a really stupid idea to me. I mean, this is a community of hackers, isn't it?

I also wonder about how much of my bandwidth is this gonna use? Will my network bog down whenever someone randomly starts downloading?

The whole torrent thing overall sounds like a good idea, but I think you guys need to do a better job of explaining how it works and if there are any risks involved before you get alot of people helping out.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[JILOMAN_12670]

Nice post DAVE


Ha ha
Just kiddin... your right on brother man

"The final curtain...... AOL did it his way"

I am not a DAVE poster dude but you are entitled to think what you want. I will not be able to convince you otherwise. But think about the truth of the statements I made. This site cannot exist as it is without sales of DICK hardware! Believe it or not, the bandwith it takes to run this puppy is not cheap. this isn't exactly a site that you can throw together and put on a cheap server somewhere.

The other thing that I didn't mention is that adding torrent content to the site seems to make it a big target. The enemies of this site are already big without making new ones like the Motion Picture Association of America, Microsoft, Sony, ....

Come on now, beating Dave and Dick already seems to be a big bite to chew. Why take on more? The risk seems to be increasing and the rewards will inevitably decrease once N2 is fully implemented. It was a sad day when DSSUG shut down and the same will apply here if there is no N2 hack. It really depends on how long Milli is willing to operate at a loss.

For most of us this is a great place to come and talk shop for free but for Milli it is a way to keep customers informed. If there are no sales then there is no reason for the site to exist. Especially if it is operating at a loss. Of course I hope that I am wrong but my gut tells me that DAVE and DICK have finally smartened up and won :cry:

[The Doc]

This probably belongs in a new thread, but on the Torrent issue, I for one am really reluctent to seed unless I know more about the security of my PC. I saw the thread about having to open my firewall inorder to seed, and that sounds like a really stupid idea to me. I mean, this is a community of hackers, isn't it?

I also wonder about how much of my bandwidth is this gonna use? Will my network bog down whenever someone randomly starts downloading?

The whole torrent thing overall sounds like a good idea, but I think you guys need to do a better job of explaining how it works and if there are any risks involved before you get alot of people helping out.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Some may argue, but IMO this is the best beginners guide for torrents

http://dessent.net/btfaq/#what

[dbDan]

An FTA or atmega type hack won't happen with N2 because it is a mathematical impossibility! Nagra 2 uses something called a DT08. Basically, this is 72 byte number that the card sends to the receiver right at bootup. This 72 byte number is RSA encrypted with a 512 bit key that only Nagra knows. This 512 bit is not found in the receiver or card...so it will never be known to us. Furthermore, the DT08 contains info on the boxkeys, IRD #, Cam #. When the receiver gets this DT08, it basically does some mathematical checking to ensure that it wasn't forged and establishes a session key. If the IRD suspects the DT08 was forged, it requests it again from the card and goes into an infinite loop until the card produces a valid DT08. You cannot create your own DT08 because doing so would require factoring a very large number (512 bits) into 2 prime numbers....it is one of the oldest problems in number theory. It is simple to factor a number, but it's time consuming! And a number that is 512 bits long would take all the supercomputers until the end of the universe to factor that number. You get the point? The DT08 was introduced by Nagra to make any standalone hacks IMPOSSIBLE. People need to understand this...standalone hack will never exist again, even if we have complete dumps of the card and IRDs.

The moral of this story is that people can throw out their FTA receivers, Magic Cards and Atmegas, any hack ever appearing will require a Nagra 2 card be present.

mili
Back to the original topic at hand.

DT08?? So I guess sub cards that have been logged that show a zero return to DT08 aren't going to work huh??
This 512 bit is not found in the receiver or card..Hmm, have you even reread that statement..lol.
Furthermore, the DT08 contains info on the boxkeys, IRD #, Cam #.Care to share in public/private/or wherever on that?
The DT08 was introduced by Nagra to make any standalone hacks IMPOSSIBLE. People need to understand this...standalone hack will never exist again, even if we have complete dumps of the card and IRDs.I do not buy into that thinking for a second concerning the DT08. If you have access to info that would back these statements up it would make for interesting reading but otherwise I say BS.

[smilingjack]

Wrong...

LNA= Requires a separate down converter, tuning voltage must be sent to the down converter to change channels. The down converter can be attached to the feedhorn/LNA assembly (I used zip ties), or the 50 ohm cable can be run down and attached somewhere else like on the pole. But the LNA is strictly for analog *tuning*, and can receive digital signals. LNA= Low Noise Amplifier

LNB= Down converter is built-in to the LNA and can be tuned digitally. Used for Both C band and KU Band. LNB= Low Noise Block Amplifier

The "Big round target"= The feedhorn.. It is a necessary part required for both C Band and KU Band. The scaler rings are there to "scale off" stray signal. They exist in your Dishnet LNBs as well. There is also the polarizer that is also necessary to receive both Horizontal ans Vertical polarized signals. Chaparrel called theirs the Polarotor(tm).. There are other brands, but they do the same thing.

The "DSS" LNB polarizes electronically


He knows absolutley nothing about C-Band and scaler rings and he found one and he is thinking about buying it. It does no good to discribe something Hi tech terms to someone who does not speak the language so I tried to make it simple,very simple, scaler rings is greek to most people and a big round target like thing can be understood by a 5 year old.

Must make your mother proud you talking down to people with less knowledge than you like thay are peons. ,

Here you gorunning your mouth without reading before you start talking, if you had gone up a few posts you would have seen the point of the conversation.

Bet you have a lot of friends who like to sit around and listen to you talk over their heads.

[The Doc]

An FTA or atmega type hack won't happen with N2 because it is a mathematical impossibility! Nagra 2 uses something called a DT08. Basically, this is 72 byte number that the card sends to the receiver right at bootup. This 72 byte number is RSA encrypted with a 512 bit key that only Nagra knows. This 512 bit is not found in the receiver or card...so it will never be known to us. Furthermore, the DT08 contains info on the boxkeys, IRD #, Cam #. When the receiver gets this DT08, it basically does some mathematical checking to ensure that it wasn't forged and establishes a session key. If the IRD suspects the DT08 was forged, it requests it again from the card and goes into an infinite loop until the card produces a valid DT08. You cannot create your own DT08 because doing so would require factoring a very large number (512 bits) into 2 prime numbers....it is one of the oldest problems in number theory. It is simple to factor a number, but it's time consuming! And a number that is 512 bits long would take all the supercomputers until the end of the universe to factor that number. You get the point? The DT08 was introduced by Nagra to make any standalone hacks IMPOSSIBLE. People need to understand this...standalone hack will never exist again, even if we have complete dumps of the card and IRDs.

The moral of this story is that people can throw out their FTA receivers, Magic Cards and Atmegas, any hack ever appearing will require a Nagra 2 card be present.

mili

Don't mean to stand off against what you are saying but I spent the last 2 days looking into this statement. I would suggest that IF this is true a work around could be done. This process sounds more like GSM/EDGE authentication than anything else. Perhaps in the beginning a stand alone hack would be hard to find but as time goes by this will be cracked. I feel confident that it would start with lesser more easy to understand receivers like the 2800/2700 where this portion of the communication process between the card and the receiver is intercepted and perhaps with the help of a hardware ad on. the authentication needed to move past this step is forced open on the receiver and locked in this state, and the part of the routine that's on the card is delt with to fource it as well. Not exactly rocket science folks.

End result. Both receiver and card are made believe that the decoding is authentic


I might add that I have spoken with several "guru's" in this business and none of them have been able to confirm your statement. But they all agree that this routine is close to what GSM/EDGE uses. GSM/EDGE has been cracked for nearly 4 months now. Using a similar routine to what I just mentioned.

Might just add as well that GSM/EDGE encryption is atleast 6 years ahead of echostar receivers. on the hardware side.