The pope's Speech

[Bandit5906]

This was not an invitation to the usual feel-good interfaith round-tables. It is a request for dialogue with one condition--that everyone at the table reject the irrationality of religiously motivated violence. The pope isn't condemning Islam; he is inviting it to join rather than reject the modern world.

By their reaction to the pope's speech, some Muslim leaders showed again that Islam has a problem with modernity that is going to have to be solved by a debate within Islam. The day Muslims condemn Islamic terror with the same vehemence they condemn those who criticize Islam, an attempt at dialogue--and at improving relations between the Western and Islamic worlds--can begin.

[mj1998]

same topic of discussion, so I figured I'd paste this text from another forum:

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"Terrorism is not a Muslim monopoly"

All Muslims may not be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims." This comment , frequently heard after the Mumbai bomb blasts implies that terrorism is a Muslim specialty, if not a monopoly. The facts are very different.

First, there is nothing new about terrorism. In 1881, anarchists killed the Russian Tsar Alexander II and 21 bystanders. In 1901, anarchists killed US President McKinley as well as King Humbert I of Italy.

World War I started in 1914 when anarchists killed Archduke Ferdinand of Austria. These terrorist attacks were not Muslim. Terrorism is generally defined as the killing of civilians for political reasons.

Going by this definition, the British Raj referred to Bhagat Singh, Chandrashekhar Azad and many other Indian freedom fighters as terrorists. These were Hindu and Sikh rather than Muslim.

Guerrilla fighters from Mao Zedong to Ho Chi Minh and Fidel Castro killed civilians during their revolutionary campaigns. They too were called terrorists until they triumphed.

Nothing Muslim about them. In Palestine, after World War II, Jewish groups (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang) fought for the creation of a Jewish state, bombing hotels and installations and killing civilians.

The British, who then governed Palestine, rightly called these Jewish groups terrorists. Many of these terrorists later became leaders of independent Israel ? Moshe Dayan, Yitzhak Rabin, Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon.

Ironically, these former terrorists then lambasted terrorism, applying this label only to Arabs fighting for the very same nationhood that the Jews had fought for earlier.

In Germany in 1968-92, the Baader-Meinhoff Gang killed dozens, including the head of Treuhand, the German privatisation agency. In Italy, the Red Brigades kidnapped and killed Aldo Moro, former prime minister.

The Japanese Red Army was an Asian version of this. Japan was also the home of Aum Shinrikyo, a Buddhist cult that tried to kill thousands in the Tokyo metro system using nerve gas in 1995.

In Europe, the Irish Republican Army has been a Catholic terrorist organisation for almost a century. Spain and France face a terrorist challenge from ETA, the Basque terrorist organisation.

Africa is ravaged by so much civil war and internal strife that few people even bother to check which groups can be labelled terrorist. They stretch across the continent.

Possibly the most notorious is the Lord's Salvation Army in Uganda, a Christian outfit that uses children as warriors. In Sri Lanka, the Tamil Tigers have long constituted one of the most vicious and formidable terrorist groups in the world.

They were the first to train children as terrorists. They happen to be Hindus. Suicide bombing is widely associated with Muslim Palestinians and Iraqis, but the Tamil Tigers were the first to use this tactic on a large scale.

One such suicide bomber assassinated Rajiv Gandhi in 1991. In India, the militants in Kashmir are Muslim. But they are only one of several militant groups. The Punjab militants, led by Bhindranwale, were Sikhs.

The United Liberation Front of Assam is a Hindu terrorist group that targets Muslims rather than the other way round. Tripura has witnessed the rise and fall of several terrorist groups, and so have Bodo strongholds in Assam.

Christian Mizos mounted an insurrection for decades, and Christian Nagas are still heading militant groups. But most important of all are the Maoist terrorist groups that now exist in no less than 150 out of India's 600 districts.

They have attacked police stations, and killed and razed entire villages that oppose them. These are secular terrorists (like the Baader Meinhof Gang or Red Brigades).

In terms of membership and area controlled, secular terrorists are far ahead of Muslim terrorists. In sum, terrorism is certainly not a Muslim monopoly.

There are or have been terrorist groups among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and even Buddhists. Secular terrorists (anarchists, Maoists) have been the biggest killers.

Why then is there such a widespread impression that most or all terrorist groups are Muslim? I see two reasons. First, the Indian elite keenly follows the western media, and the West feels under attack from Islamic groups.

Catholic Irish terrorists have killed far more people in Britain than Muslims, yet the subway bombings in London and Madrid are what Europeans remember today.

The Baader Meinhof Gang, IRA and Red Brigades no longer pose much of a threat, but after 9/11 Americans and Europeans fear that they could be hit anywhere anytime. So they focus attention on Islamic militancy.

They pay little notice to other forms of terrorism in Africa, Sri Lanka or India: these pose no threat to the West. Within India, Maoists pose a far greater threat than Muslim militants in 150 districts, one-third of India's area.

But major cities feel threatened only by Muslim groups. So the national elite and media focus overwhelmingly on Muslim terrorism. The elite are hardly aware that this is an elite phenomenon.

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[Twostep]

MJ is correct, of course - Muslims don't own the patents on terrorism.
It's just that radical Islam is in the spotlight right now - has been, since 9/11, at least in this country.

Personally, I think the Pope should not have quoted that ancient Byzantine emperor. It's the truth - I personally believe radical Islam is faith-based violence - but was the quote absolutely necessary? No. Benedict XVI had to have known the furor it would start....

Radical Muslim leaders and the sheep who follow their teachings utilize ANYTHING, no matter how miniscule, to justify riots, beheadings, suicide bombings, you name it. The Western world cannot reason with, bargain with, negotiate with or otherwise appease these people. So, you do one of two things - eliminate them, or leave them the hell alone. Dialogue and diplomacy with a guy like Zawahiri is a total waste of time, money and human lives. I

Let's hear some peace-loving Muslims (or other ethnic group) speak out against their violent brothers. One internationally-televised speech from one of these prominent leaders denouncing terrorism would mean more than years of diplomacy on the part of the United States.

[JT]

MJ is correct, of course - Muslims don't own the patents on terrorism.
It's just that radical Islam is in the spotlight right now - has been, since 9/11, at least in this country.

Personally, I think the Pope should not have quoted that ancient Byzantine emperor. It's the truth - I personally believe radical Islam is faith-based violence - but was the quote absolutely necessary? No. Benedict XVI had to have known the furor it would start....

Radical Muslim leaders and the sheep who follow their teachings utilize ANYTHING, no matter how miniscule, to justify riots, beheadings, suicide bombings, you name it. The Western world cannot reason with, bargain with, negotiate with or otherwise appease these people. So, you do one of two things - eliminate them, or leave them the hell alone. Dialogue and diplomacy with a guy like Zawahiri is a total waste of time, money and human lives. I

Let's hear some peace-loving Muslims (or other ethnic group) speak out against their violent brothers. One internationally-televised speech from one of these prominent leaders denouncing terrorism would mean more than years of diplomacy on the part of the United States.

Radical Islam attacking US citizens goes back AT LEAST 20 years prior to 9/11/2001. Remember the US embassy bombing and the capture of, I don't remember the number exactly, but seems like it was about 175 US citizens that were working there. It's been a long time, so I'd have to check the facts, but i think it was our embassy in Iran. They hid those folks in a hole for 18 months before Jimmy Carter brokered a deal to get them back.

On every other count Twostep, I think you hit the nail right on the head. It's just been going on a lot longer than the last five years is my point. 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack on the twin towers. The first I know of was about 8 years earlier in the form of a gigantic car bomb in the lower parking garage. (also perpetrated by Islamic terrorists) So anyone saying the thought that an attempt on the twin towers never occured to them is either out of ignorance or deliberate deception.

[Twostep]

Radicalism, period dates back to the dawn of man, I'm quite certain - but you're correct, JT, about the 1983 embassy bombing.

Good point as to the 1993 attempt on the WTC. Shall we start a Clinton Conspiracy thread?:eek::eek:

[skinerd]

Let's hear some peace-loving Muslims (or other ethnic group) speak out against their violent brothers. One internationally-televised speech from one of these prominent leaders denouncing terrorism would mean more than years of diplomacy on the part of the United States.

Ain't gonna happen, they obviously don't give a shit......

[greypower]

Personally, I'm tired of seeing these (orchestrated and staged) mass demonstrations by radical Muslims. Where is the outrage on our side? Where are the mass demonstrations by Christians against the shooting of a nun while she was praying? Or the demonstrations against the Muslim threats to assassinate the Pope and slit the throats of all those who follow the cross? No, instead we fall all over ourselves apologizing, and bicker among ourselves over how to best placate them. There's no way to satisfy or appease these people. It's time the rest of the world got some balls and stood up to these radicals.

[smilingjack]

Nuke them and send them back to camels and stick and stone to play with

That the only way to deal with them

[greypower]

Ain't gonna happen, they obviously don't give a shit......

While that's probably true, they also are afraid of the consequences if they speak out. Terrorists would kidnap and behead them in no time.

[OverEasy]

Radical Islam attacking US citizens goes back AT LEAST 20 years prior to 9/11/2001. Remember the US embassy bombing and the capture of, I don't remember the number exactly, but seems like it was about 175 US citizens that were working there. It's been a long time, so I'd have to check the facts, but i think it was our embassy in Iran. They hid those folks in a hole for 18 months before Jimmy Carter brokered a deal to get them back.

Just for the record Jimmy Carter didn't broker shit he sent in the marines to rescue the hostages and it ended in tragedy when their helicopters crashed in to each other in the Iraninan desert. The hostages were released 3 or 4 days after Ronald Reagan was in office.

[Satan]

Don't have to look to far or to long ago to understand the IQ of these people....let's kill some people cause of a cartoon....let's kill the pope...cause he quoted a 17'th century scholar..let's kill the American's...because there the reason were poor...and our leader's are all stinking rich..LoL.....

Time will tell who win's this war...some dick wad's without any cause or airforce...or the US...?

[cse_20]

A lot of good points from everyone, but I too am fed up with these animals of today!
personally I think the problem is that they just woke up after 400 years or whatever and realized that they are sitting on something valuable (oil that is).

We should just go on to the next thing and let them drown in it.

Regards.

[mj1998]

Ain't gonna happen, they obviously don't give a shit......

..in today's UN speech..pakistani president denounced terrorism...same goes for the leaders of egypt and jordan who have done it before.

[greypower]

..in today's UN speech..pakistani president denounced terrorism...same goes for the leaders of egypt and jordan who have done it before.

Brave men, indeed!

[Bandit5906]

The point the Pope was making is that God (by definition) is not a God of war or terror. That is what prefaced this whole speech!

I'm sick to death of these barbaric animals and their killings: nun(s), woman on the beach with her fiance, journalists, etc.

During the past 17 years 92% of all terror attacks have been by Muslims. We are concerned with their rights! Can't Kill them because they are at a funeral: Fux them!!!!

[JT]

Just for the record Jimmy Carter didn't broker shit he sent in the marines to rescue the hostages and it ended in tragedy when their helicopters crashed in to each other in the Iraninan desert. The hostages were released 3 or 4 days after Ronald Reagan was in office.

Correct OE. It was Carter that made it happen though. Reagan just happened to be the guy in office during the actual release.

I also think our embassy was bombed and all those hostages taken was more like 1980. I'll have to double check. I remember seeing that special "miracle" about the 1980 US hocky taking the gold medal that year, and how happy those that were captive were that they got that as one of their history updates after their release. We've had other embassy's bombed too, but never that many hostages taken before or since AFAIK.

[mj1998]

...
I'm sick to death of these barbaric animals and their killings: nun(s), woman on the beach with her fiance, journalists, etc.
...

I totally agree with ya, but check out just two of these recent events that happened just yesterday. Isn't this non-muslim terrorism?
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http://www.imemc.org/content/view/21539/1/
IMEMC & Agencies
19 September 2006
Two West Bank residents were killed by the Israeli army on Tuesday morning, one of them a pregnant woman who was delayed at an army checkpoint.
Bushra Sultan, 27, from the Saflit region of the West Bank, died at an Israeli military checkpoint - East of Saflit - which had been closed by Israeli soldiers on Tuesday morning. Medical teams tried to revive Sultan but all attempts failed, leading to her death due to being unnecessarily held at the checkpoint.
Israeli soldiers stationed at checkpoints located all over the West Bank delay ambulances for hours as they search Palestinian vehicles. This action often leads to the death of patients in ambulances waiting to cross checkpoints.
Elsewhere Nabile Hanini, 25, from Sanour village south of the West Bank city of Jenin was shot and killed and another four taken prisoner by the Israeli army on Tuesday morning. In the early morning hours more than 20 armored vehicles stormed the village of Sanour and surrounded the house of Mohammed Abdul Latif before showering it with live rounds, when soldiers left the area Hanini was found dead in the house, local sources said he was originally from Beit Fourik near Nablus city.
Medical sources reported that Hanini was killed due to being hit by several live rounds in the chest and head, local residents reported that soldiers had arrested Hanini before killing him.
Abdul Latif, the owner of the house, was taken along with his three sons, by Israeli troops to an unknown location.
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http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1619227.ece"]Gaza: The children killed in a war the world doesn't want to know about 19 September 2006
UK Independent
Nayef Abu Snaima says his 14-year-old cousin Jihad had been sitting on the edge of an olive grove talking animatedly to him about what he would do when he grew up when he was killed instantly by an Israeli shell.
He says he clearly saw a bright flash next to the control tower of the disused Gaza international airport, occupied by Israeli forces after Cpl Gilad Shalit was seized by militants on 25 June. "I went two or three steps and the missile landed," said Nayef, 24. "I thought I was dying. I shouted 'La Ilaha Ila Allah' [There is no God but Allah]."
When Jihad's older brother Kassem, 20, arrived at the scene: "My brother was already dead. There was shrapnel in his head. Nayef was shouting 'Allah, Allah'. The missile landed about four metres from where Jihad had been standing. There was shrapnel in his body as well, his legs, everything. He had been bleeding a lot everywhere."
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[Twostep]

..in today's UN speech..pakistani president denounced terrorism...same goes for the leaders of egypt and jordan who have done it before.

Yes, they did - but if you'll notice, they all denounce it in a general way....what they need to do is be specific about it. Name names and incidents. Call for the fomenters of terrorism to be rounded up and killed. Fuck a bunch of this "bring the evildoers to justice" shit....round 'em up and execute em.

They'll never do this - they're far too fearful. It's a realistic fear, and a damn shame.

MJ1998, while your postings are most likely fact, they're isolated incidents, something you'll find in any war. It's not right, absolutely - I feel for the families of those killed in those attacks - but don't paint the nation of Israel with the same brush as you'd paint radical Islam.

[trackzz]

There is no logic to these muslum people train of thought.
when a white person (non muslum) draws a characature of mohamed all the muslums go on a riot and destruction and immedieatly call for the death of said person or persons. but in the mean time they are blowing up each others mosques and othe religious places.
Go figure